Re-read page 111-5. How is war described and characterized? Pay close attention to Hildeburh’s situation. What predicament does war and the heroic code leave her in? What poem(s) does this portion of the text connect to, and how so? What commentary does the poet/speaker make about war here?
Reply to at least 1 one of your classmates' posts.
AP English Lit & Comp Period 5
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Here, war is described as an evil that affects not only the warriors, but also their family and their society. In Hildebruh’s situation, her soon-to-be husband, Finn, kills her brother and her son. As a result of the warriors’ need for glory in battle, she is left to grieve the loss of her own family and and give them a fire-burial. This portion of the text connects to the poem “The Wife’s Lament.” In it, the speaker is a wife whose husband has been exiled. Because of this, she is in a state of immense anguish and loneliness, as if she had been exiled as well. In both poems, the actions of the women’s loved ones have put the women in a place where they are being punished for someone else’s actions. The poet/speaker comments on how war complicates relationships and how it affects more than just the warriors involved in war. I believe the poet/speaker also comments on how the results of war can be more detrimental than successful.
ReplyDeleteI agree that war affects more than just the warriors but also the society as well. I did not see that the heroic code showed the warriors' need for glory in battle. Instead I saw the need for a good reputation and the importance of loyalty. However, I do see that part of the heroic code in the text as well. I also agree that the speaker was trying to comment on how the results of war is more detrimental than successful.
DeleteIn pages 111-5 in Beowulf, war is characterized as a universal negative. Not only does war affect the warriors and the rulers but the whole community on both sides. Because of the war and the heroic code that says he must be loyal and keep a good reputation, Hildeburh must marry Fin, the man that killed her brother. The text connects to “The Wife’s Lament”, which is about a wife whose husband has been exiled. Because of his exile, she is left in a state of longing and is tortured by exile. These two sections of both texts connect because both women are left sad, alone, and living a life they did not want. Both lose their husbands and because of that, they lose themselves. In “The Wife’s Lament”, the speaker comments on the consequences of war. Not only hurting the ones who endured the battle but also their loved ones and friends. By doing this, the poet creates a negative tone when talking about war.
ReplyDeleteI agree that war has a negative connotation in these pages. But Hildebruh doesn’t lose her husband. She loses her son and brother who are killed by Finn and his warriors. I like how you mentioned that they not only lost their loved ones but also themselves as a result of the exile.
DeleteWar is described as a devastating event that has long lasting consequences beyond those who partake in it first-hand. In this war Hildeburh has lost both her brother and son because of King Finn’s attack on the Half-Dane’s hall leaving her miserable and in a state where she must be self-reliant. Similarly, in “The Wife’s Lament” the speaker feels tortured by the loneliness she has to face since her husband is gone. In both this portion of “Beowulf” and “The Wife’s Lament” the women experience exile; Hildeburh and the warriors feel isolated and defeated during the winter in which they stay in Frisian land just as the speaker of “The Wife’s Lament” describes her anguish of loneliness as the worst sorrow she has even dealt with. In both poems the speakers seem to mention that war is a cruel event for all people because it harms warriors’ and their loved ones. Wives in these stories are left alone in what they feel is exile because even though there are other people with them they still feel isolated because they do not have the men who mean the most to them in their lives.
ReplyDeleteI really like how you mention that as a result of separation from their husbands, the wives also feel the effects of exile. I completely agree.
DeleteIn "Beowulf" 111-5, the text demonstrates that the effect of War is not confined to just the people fighting the war. War affects the families of warriors who perish in battle or become injured. By broadening the scope of War from simply the battle to the long lasting damages, the text characterizes war as detrimental to relationships. In 111-5, Hildeburh has lost both her brother and her son to War. The heroic code says that one should always be brave in battle for their king and that fate will determine the the outcome. However, this thinking is rather problematic because it causes warriors not to consider the outcome of their actions. Hildeburh might still have her family if they had been wiser in battle. This pain is also felt by the narrator of "The Wife's Lament". She too has lost a loved one to the heroic code, but in a different way. Their king died before her husband, a warrior for the king, which is strictly prohibited by the heroic code. Therefore, her husband was exiled. Both "Beowulf" and "The Wife's Lament" illustrate the effect of War on the relationships one has fostered throughout their life. Through these poems, the poet/speaker suggests that when considering the full effects of War on society, it is not as beneficial and can even be damaging.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the text shows a broader scope of who war affects but I feel like it not only shows how it is bad for relationships, but more specifically for women.
DeleteI think it was interesting how you commented that Hildeburh might still have her family if they were smarter in battle. Although I think that is partially true, I think they were going to die at one point soon because they were kings in a time that was battle-driven. I also like the parallel you draw between losing a loved one to death and losing a loved one to exile.
DeleteIn this portion of “Beowulf”, war is described through the perspective of women and is characterized as a bitter and tragic event. Hildeburh is a Danish princess who has lost he brother and son in the war between the Danes and Frisians. She marries the Frisian king, Fin, who is later slain in an uprising by the Danes. She is then returned to the land of Denmark as a widow. Hildeburh is faced with the predicament of being married to the Frisian king but being a daughter of the Danes. This means that her loyalty is divided because she has a son fighting on one side and a brother on the other. This portion of the text connects to the poem “The Wife’s Lament” because it shows how women feel isolated and sorrowful during wartime. Both women felt loneliness and anguish during the turbulent times, this demonstrates the pain that women feel during war when their loyalties are divided. The speaker is claiming that women are very important during war and are also greatly affected by the outcomes. In Germanic Warrior culture women are often used as peace tools during times of war in order to connect tribes.
ReplyDeleteI do agree that both of these poems add in the perspective of a woman in an unique way. It's interesting to see their perspectives being inverted into these texts and how they are depicted through their own perspectives.
DeleteI agree that the effects of war divides a woman's loyalty in half. Half is spent on the faithfulness to ones lord. The other is left to silently lament over casualties.
DeleteI do agree with your point when you state the loyalty is divided, however I feel while her loyalty to her family and to her husband is one part of the internal struggle she faces, I also feel she more strongly feels the need to remain presentable to society and follow societal laws by mourning for her lost loved ones in private and giving support to her husband in public.
DeleteEmma Sheridan:
ReplyDeleteIn "Beowulf" pages 111-15, war is described as harmful to human prosperity and it affects the lives of all citizens in different types of ways. War is described as having a "restless spirit." War is constantly moving around, affecting families as it goes along. In "Beowulf," Hildeburh must marry Fin, the man who killed her brother during war. Due to the heroic code, Hildeburh must follow through with this marriage and not show that she is grieving. This situation, that derived from war, overall affects Hildeburh's well being. This text can be related to "The Wife's Lament." This text takes place in the perspective of a wife who's husband had been exiled and son and brother who had been killed during war. Both of these women have lost people who mean a lot to them in the context of war. By having these events happen to them, these women feel lost and start loosing pieces of themselves with every passing day. It affects the prosperity in their everyday lives. By describing war with a negative connotation, the poets create a negative and melancholy tone to both of their poems.
Unfortunately, like you mentioned, Hildeburh experiences the death of close family. Although, I believe she is already married to Finn. Her son dies along with her brother (her son with Finn). That's why it is so tough for her, she holds a connection with both sides of the war.
DeleteI like how you mentioned that the women and both husbands have lost themselves after loosing people close to them. This goes to show that war not only results in physical death, but it also causes those who have lost loved ones in war to experience an "emotional death". In other words, those who have lost loved ones become lifeless and filled with grief and anguish.
DeleteWhoop! It looks like I made a mistake! That is not Finn's son! Sorry!
DeleteI take that back, I was correct the first time I commented. It is Finn's son that died.
DeleteThrough the story of Hildeburh regarding the Danes and Frisians, war is characterized as a cruel and unforgiving event. The scop telling Hildeburh’s story describes the Dane-Frisian war by recalling its disasterous effects: the death of Hildeburh’s relatives, the loss of a nation’s leader, and unfavorable negotiations. Due to the war, Hildeburh is put in a tough position. As the daughter of a Dane but wife of a Frisian, she is to choose where her loyalties lie. On one hand, she has lost her Danish brother, but on the other hand she has lost her Frisian son. She is left grieving her brother and son’s death. This part of Beowulf relates to the poem The Wife’s Lament. In Beowulf, Hildeburh experiences pain and loneliness because of the death of her relatives. In The Wife’s Lament, a woman also experiences pain and loneliness because of the exile of her husband, which might as well be his death. In the latter work, the speaker criticizes war. War has caused her husband to be in exile, which in turn has has a great effect on her. Her husband is not the only one who feels the pain and consequences of exile. The speaker is punished along with her husband, as she feels sorrow and loneliness. In both Beowulf and The Wife’s Lament, war is shown to not only affect a warrior, but also the family of the warrior.
ReplyDeleteI agree that both the wives and the warriors experienced exile as a consequence of war. Also, I like the idea you brought up about Hildeburh having to decide where her loyalty lies.
DeleteIn pages 111-5 war is described as a negative event that leaves damages that not only affect the Warriors, but also their families and communities. In Hildeburgh's situation, she will soon marry a man who is responsible for the death of her brother and son, the two people who brought her the most joy. As a result of their death, Hildeburh is now left grieving and mourning the loss of her loved ones. This portion connects to the poem "The Wife's Lament". In this poem, a wife's husband has exiled himself, and as a results, she goes on a quest to find him. On this quest she is absolutely alone with nothing other than despair and anguish over her husband's absence to keep her company. In her attempt to save her husband from his exile, she has essentially exiled herself. This exile has caused her to suffer deep sadness and loneliness. In "Beowulf and "The wife's Lament" we are able to see the suffering that war has on the families of Warriors. In both poems, the wives both suffer and are filled with grief due to the absence of loved ones.
ReplyDeleteOn pages 111-5, war is given a negative connotation. It is described as an act that dismembers families and destroys communities. In the case of Hildeburh, war stole the life of her brother and son. She was then forced to marry their killer as part of a truce to save the Frisian reputation. Because of this truce between nations, the Danish community was rather vexed. This portion of the text resembles the messages found in "The Wife's Lament". Both the wife and Hildeburh had family who was divided by war. These women grieved over the loss of their kinsmen. They both were faced with hardship during their bereavement. The wife was placed in exile and Hildeburh entered into an arranged marriage with the enemy. It can be inferred that the speaker believes that war is not beneficial to anyone, especially to those who do not have much control over their own lives. Women are forced to endure the pain and sadness of bereavement alone. A loyal king's defenseless subjects must tolerate whatever treatment they receive from a battle's victor.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that war causes a divisions in family is an important thing to highlight because I think it ecmompasses the authors' notion that war is bad really well. The division not only happens in the family, but the whole community too.
DeleteIn pages 113 to 115 of Beowulf, war is portrayed as a battle that stretches farther than fighting on the battlefield itself. It does not only affect the soldiers who fight in it, but their families and their communities as well. It highlights the situation of Hildebruh. She is to marry the leader of the tribe that kills her brother and son. To keep up the heroic code, Hildebruh does not even have the time to mourn the loss of her loved ones. The Frisians waste no time in establishing terms that demand half of the control and treasure over Hildebruh's people. The death of Hildebruh's brother and son led to the victory of the Frisians, the griebing of the tribe, and the loss of half their treasure. This portion of the book can be connected to "The Wife's Lament" which portrays the perspective of a wide while her husband is exiled. She is lonely and miserable without her husband. The loss of a companion not only affects the person's well being but their loved ones' too.
ReplyDeleteI think the text is more focused on the event of war as being a divisive thing that really complicates relationships and makes people question what virtues and/or parts,of the heroic code they should uphold.
DeleteIn pages 113-5, war is characterized as a divisive and cruel event. The gory language and the division between the tribes and their families shows helps to characterize war. Hildeburh loses her brother and her son in the destructive war, and then is set to marry the leader of the tribe who has slain them. In order to keep up with the heroic code, Hildeburh must marry the leader of the tribe. Sure, she must be loyal to her own tribe, but in this situation the virtue of courage prevails. Hildeburh has to make sure the people of her tribe are safe, and in order to do so she must marry. This portion of the text seems to connect to “The Wife’s Lament” which is about a woman whose husband is exiled. Both of these women are in predicaments where the noble virtues of courage and loyalty conflict each other. Should the wife be loyal to her husband, or have the strength to remain in the society that exiled him? The speaker speaks of war as a thing that complicates people’s relationships, especially that between a husband and a wife.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the conflict about the heroic code and the wife's loyalty to her husband. In "The Wife's Lament," she describes the situations as being kept from her husband by the kingsmen and at the end, the marriage oath that she took with her husband. The kingmen's actions and the marriage could give to imply that she still wishes to pursue her exiled husband, yet the heroic code that society has in place is prohibiting her from doing so.
DeleteIn this section of "Beowulf," war is portrayed as detrimental to not only the warriors fighting, but also their families, and society. In the poem, this negative portrayal of war is seen through Hildeburh's predicament. Her brother and son have died at the hands of her betrothed. It's seen how war affects the warrior, as it can lead to their death; however, the pain and sorrow that Hildeburh feels is proof of the negative effect that it has on the family. Furthermore, society is affected as it leaves them vulnerable and susceptible to an attack. This situation is very similar to "The Wife's Lament." The women in the poem is grieving her husband being exiled. She's lonely and in pain, and feels that she's in her own exile as a result. In both poems, the women were happiest when their loved ones were not affected by war.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your connection between Hildeburh's situation and the scene from "The Wife' s Lament", however I think that the speakers of both these works are commenting on how their emotional responses to tragedy stray from the heroic code's expectations of women. Saying that "women were happiest when their loved ones were not affected by war" is a valid statement because it is evident in the text, but I don't think it is the main focus of these texts.
DeleteIn pages 111-115 of Beowulf, war is described as an unjustifiable act of violence. The main driving forces of war are power and treasure, both of which are selfish and not wise reasons to go to war. In the situation of Hildeburh, her husband due to war has killed her brother and her son. She is left to grieve alone however cannot make her complaints against her husband known because of the heroic code and societal laws of the time, which restricted women’s point of view. This portion of the poem relates to the poem, The Wife’s Lament, in which the wife of a man who has been exiled by his community. The wife is left all alone to grieve the loss of her husband, which is similar to Hildeburh who was also left alone to lament the loss of her loved ones. Both women suffer emotionally because of the loss of loved ones due to societal laws. Comparing the two characters indicates that the speaker has negative views on war. War is a selfish act that not only causes harm to those lost, but also to the families of the warriors lost.
ReplyDeleteWar is considered with two different contexts: when it is justified and when it is not justified. On pages 111-115, aggression and violence is characterized as unjustifiable because it is for the sake of greedy intentions regarding money and power. In regard to Hildeburh's situation, she has lost both her son and brother as a result of war, their glory diminished by not fighting for a noble cause. Despite this tragedy, she is expected to maintain her composure and respond with grace and acceptance. This portion of the text connects to "The Wife's Lament" because a similar scene is portrayed when she loses the man in her life, her husband, to a life of exile, and breaks the heroic code by mourning over this loss. Overall, the speaker in Beowulf is characterizing war as a negative act, and that the tragedy that results from it is not worth the risk.
ReplyDeleteWar is described as a double sided evil that affects both the Warriors and their families. This is exemplified through Hildeburhs situation in which Finn kills her brother and her son. She is then left to grieve the loss of the most important people in her life, just because of one groups desire to kill and retrieve fame. This is very similar to “The Wife’s Lament.” in which the speaker is the wife of a man who has been exiled leaving her feeling depressed and lonely, as if she had been the one that was exiled. The deeds of the men in both poems greatly affect their wives who are punished for the wrongdoings of their husbands. Thi scan also comment on the greater affect that the war in this time had on society. Many families and societies are being destroyed because of the heroic code. This can be seen as the poet commenting on the ultimately destructive and detrimental nature of war.
ReplyDelete